1808 Rose Sword
Dec 9, 2020 16:23:33 GMT
Post by pgandy on Dec 9, 2020 16:23:33 GMT
I have no connection with the manufacturer, whichever that may be, nor the vendor Edward Glidden via ebay.
For a general overview of the sword I saw it on ebay 2 or 3 years ago but did not buy due to lack of information. This summer edelweiss chimed in after ordering one. He seemed satisfied with the one he received pointing out that it was a backsword. That is when I became convinced but not enough to immediately pull the trigger. I had been viewing it as a spadroon. It might be helpful to the reader to scan edelweiss’ post sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61598/rose-1808-reproduction-india . I feel the Rose more of a spadroon than a backsword both in weight and handling. It is a notch or two better than the run of the mill Windlass in construction. I like the sword and could find only one flaw and that was in the design. More about that under the hilt description. This matches the description of the M1813 sword and I think 1808 is an error. This Rose would be well suited for a re-enactor of the War of 1812, which ended shortly after Napoleon’s downfall in 1815 through the Civil War when people were grabbing any and everything they could get their hands on. There are no manufacturer’s markings and I assume that it was made in India. The one I received was the vendor’s last one and appears to have been the store’s display model as evidence of finger prints along with some neglect was apparent. There was rust on the cutting edge from potential buyers and curiosity seekers checking the sharpness that disappeared on sharpening and the tarnished brass cleaned up nicely with lacquer thinner to remove any remaining lacquer the manufacturer may have used for protection and Metal Glo. Edelweiss says that the vendor gets about four of these a year. I can find only a small amount of information on the Rose but I believe this to be a faithful repro.
The Statistics:
Blade length..................................28.75”
Weight..........................................670 g
PoB .............................................6⅛”
Thickness......................................5.2-2.4 mm (1” from tip)
Width...........................................27.2 mm
Grip length...................................4⅛” (quillon to bow)
Grip circumferemce 78-88-60 mm...(distal-middle-proximal)
Pommel....................................... Peened
HRC.............................................50-55
The Blade: It is 28.75” long (same length as this one auctioned www.lotsearch.net/lot/rare-rose-non-commissioned-artillery-officers-sword-with-scabbard-48371777?page=5) with a distal taper and more than stiff enough to make a good thrusting sword. It will do light cuts similar to Windlass’ M1840 NCO sword and other similar swords. As for thrusting it passed my test. It comes unsharpened but with a narrower edge than Windlass offers making sharpening easier. I sharpened the final 21” of the true edge and the 6½” false edge. The point seemed a bit rounded for a thrusting blade so I gave it a true spear point. I made a photo of the original point but as usual the camera had trouble focusing on bright steel in spite of the tape I put on it. Using my crude hardness test it appears the blade is between 50-55 HRC. The blade has a few waves reminiscent of Windlass but without the washed out fuller and other corners. The polish is borderline mirror. The blade is beautifully peened but not keyed. I sharpened with a 25° grind and it would slice paper. After the only cutting session I discovered that it still went through copy paper like hot butter. So I’m confident it’s properly made. A leather washer was provided.
The Hilt: It is a bit small for my #8 hand but still very usable. A glove makes things about perfect. The grip is long enough, the problem lies in the circumference. The counter guard is too small, extending outward only ½”, not enough to fully protect even the index finger. This was the only fault that I could find, a design issue. The construction is well executed with all parts fitting as they should as well as the alignment with no looseness or rattles. The knuckle bow is beefier than either my M1840 NCO or P1796 NCO swords. It does however lack a shell guard leaving the hand more exposed. Due to lack a shell guard a roundel is welcomed although a bit out of the time period. The castings are much better than the average Windlass and about equal to those of Universal, but nothing fancy.
The Sheath: Is well done in good quality leather with brass fittings at both ends. It is not whippy; I’d call it reasonably stiff. It has a frog stud making it useable with a frog or a baldric. The sword/sheath fit is good. Most will like it as it securely holds the sword inverted. I bit tighter than I prefer, but that’s me.
Handling: Excellent in that department. About like a spadroon with a shortened blade. Handling is similar to my M1840 NCO, but a trifle flat, something that I don’t notice unless I am comparing side by side. It’s faster than my repro P1796. I like the extra reach of the longer blades and the additional hand protection the other spadroons offer, but this works well and I consider it a close equal to the M1840.
Cutting: I’ve only had one cutting session and it lived up to my expectations. I used the customary soft targets, drink cans, milk carton, and plastic 1.8 L juice bottles. It cut all easily except a milk carton. My fault. As soon as I started the swing I knew it was bad but I had that only one carton. It went through the multiple targets like a champ. I would not trust it to halve large heavy walled large jugs such as a gallon cloro jug. The one thing that it fell short on, if you want to call it that, was the thrust. I used my standard free standing gallon jug with 4 ply of rugs. It penetrated only the front of the jug by an estimated 2”. There was no detectable flex, it just ran out of steam. I believe with more weight it would have made it, but more weight would detract from its handling which is quite good and I definitely don’t want to change that. It did exit the rear of the jug using 3 rugs which probably more realistic than the 4 ply. I initially started with 4 ply and to keep things uniform I continue to use it, but if a sword will pass 3 ply I’m happy as I suspect it will go through anything I’ll ever come up against. The towels that used to clean the blade between cuts and the final wipe down with WD-40 to my surprise had red blotches. I hadn’t realized that I was cut nor could I find a hole. I had done a better sharpening job than I thought.
I like the sword and the more I handle it the more I like it. It handles very much like a spadroon should. Which is something about impossible to find on today’s repro market. My thanks to edelweiss. I liked the sword from the first time I saw it, but was reluctant to buy just because it looked pretty in a photo that’s not my thing. About like marrying a girl just because she’s pretty; something that I could well regret in the future.
This turned out longer than planned. Sorry.
The Sword & Sheath Factory Point Point After Reworking, dark spots are reflections
Tarnished Chape, all brass equal After Polishing
_
The Hilt The Peen The Narrow Counter Guard
For a general overview of the sword I saw it on ebay 2 or 3 years ago but did not buy due to lack of information. This summer edelweiss chimed in after ordering one. He seemed satisfied with the one he received pointing out that it was a backsword. That is when I became convinced but not enough to immediately pull the trigger. I had been viewing it as a spadroon. It might be helpful to the reader to scan edelweiss’ post sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61598/rose-1808-reproduction-india . I feel the Rose more of a spadroon than a backsword both in weight and handling. It is a notch or two better than the run of the mill Windlass in construction. I like the sword and could find only one flaw and that was in the design. More about that under the hilt description. This matches the description of the M1813 sword and I think 1808 is an error. This Rose would be well suited for a re-enactor of the War of 1812, which ended shortly after Napoleon’s downfall in 1815 through the Civil War when people were grabbing any and everything they could get their hands on. There are no manufacturer’s markings and I assume that it was made in India. The one I received was the vendor’s last one and appears to have been the store’s display model as evidence of finger prints along with some neglect was apparent. There was rust on the cutting edge from potential buyers and curiosity seekers checking the sharpness that disappeared on sharpening and the tarnished brass cleaned up nicely with lacquer thinner to remove any remaining lacquer the manufacturer may have used for protection and Metal Glo. Edelweiss says that the vendor gets about four of these a year. I can find only a small amount of information on the Rose but I believe this to be a faithful repro.
The Statistics:
Blade length..................................28.75”
Weight..........................................670 g
PoB .............................................6⅛”
Thickness......................................5.2-2.4 mm (1” from tip)
Width...........................................27.2 mm
Grip length...................................4⅛” (quillon to bow)
Grip circumferemce 78-88-60 mm...(distal-middle-proximal)
Pommel....................................... Peened
HRC.............................................50-55
The Blade: It is 28.75” long (same length as this one auctioned www.lotsearch.net/lot/rare-rose-non-commissioned-artillery-officers-sword-with-scabbard-48371777?page=5) with a distal taper and more than stiff enough to make a good thrusting sword. It will do light cuts similar to Windlass’ M1840 NCO sword and other similar swords. As for thrusting it passed my test. It comes unsharpened but with a narrower edge than Windlass offers making sharpening easier. I sharpened the final 21” of the true edge and the 6½” false edge. The point seemed a bit rounded for a thrusting blade so I gave it a true spear point. I made a photo of the original point but as usual the camera had trouble focusing on bright steel in spite of the tape I put on it. Using my crude hardness test it appears the blade is between 50-55 HRC. The blade has a few waves reminiscent of Windlass but without the washed out fuller and other corners. The polish is borderline mirror. The blade is beautifully peened but not keyed. I sharpened with a 25° grind and it would slice paper. After the only cutting session I discovered that it still went through copy paper like hot butter. So I’m confident it’s properly made. A leather washer was provided.
The Hilt: It is a bit small for my #8 hand but still very usable. A glove makes things about perfect. The grip is long enough, the problem lies in the circumference. The counter guard is too small, extending outward only ½”, not enough to fully protect even the index finger. This was the only fault that I could find, a design issue. The construction is well executed with all parts fitting as they should as well as the alignment with no looseness or rattles. The knuckle bow is beefier than either my M1840 NCO or P1796 NCO swords. It does however lack a shell guard leaving the hand more exposed. Due to lack a shell guard a roundel is welcomed although a bit out of the time period. The castings are much better than the average Windlass and about equal to those of Universal, but nothing fancy.
The Sheath: Is well done in good quality leather with brass fittings at both ends. It is not whippy; I’d call it reasonably stiff. It has a frog stud making it useable with a frog or a baldric. The sword/sheath fit is good. Most will like it as it securely holds the sword inverted. I bit tighter than I prefer, but that’s me.
Handling: Excellent in that department. About like a spadroon with a shortened blade. Handling is similar to my M1840 NCO, but a trifle flat, something that I don’t notice unless I am comparing side by side. It’s faster than my repro P1796. I like the extra reach of the longer blades and the additional hand protection the other spadroons offer, but this works well and I consider it a close equal to the M1840.
Cutting: I’ve only had one cutting session and it lived up to my expectations. I used the customary soft targets, drink cans, milk carton, and plastic 1.8 L juice bottles. It cut all easily except a milk carton. My fault. As soon as I started the swing I knew it was bad but I had that only one carton. It went through the multiple targets like a champ. I would not trust it to halve large heavy walled large jugs such as a gallon cloro jug. The one thing that it fell short on, if you want to call it that, was the thrust. I used my standard free standing gallon jug with 4 ply of rugs. It penetrated only the front of the jug by an estimated 2”. There was no detectable flex, it just ran out of steam. I believe with more weight it would have made it, but more weight would detract from its handling which is quite good and I definitely don’t want to change that. It did exit the rear of the jug using 3 rugs which probably more realistic than the 4 ply. I initially started with 4 ply and to keep things uniform I continue to use it, but if a sword will pass 3 ply I’m happy as I suspect it will go through anything I’ll ever come up against. The towels that used to clean the blade between cuts and the final wipe down with WD-40 to my surprise had red blotches. I hadn’t realized that I was cut nor could I find a hole. I had done a better sharpening job than I thought.
I like the sword and the more I handle it the more I like it. It handles very much like a spadroon should. Which is something about impossible to find on today’s repro market. My thanks to edelweiss. I liked the sword from the first time I saw it, but was reluctant to buy just because it looked pretty in a photo that’s not my thing. About like marrying a girl just because she’s pretty; something that I could well regret in the future.
This turned out longer than planned. Sorry.
The Sword & Sheath Factory Point Point After Reworking, dark spots are reflections
Tarnished Chape, all brass equal After Polishing
_
The Hilt The Peen The Narrow Counter Guard